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 Post subject: Friend Slave . . . . ?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:10 am 
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Ok, we clearly see that there dating and by proxy romantic relationships in the EC Universe. So I find the idea that no boys would have strong platonic friendships with members of the opposite sex hard to believe. In the EC Universe the guy would certainly be made fun of for having a girl as a BF, but as we know from the real world. There will always be the social outcast who to conform to peer pressure. Has for what this hypothetical relationship would look like, I do have a few ideas.

• The guy in question would probably by far more protective of his precious chartist friend then a then the majority of boyfriend are with there girlfriends.
• He would move heaven and earth to make mother fucking sure he was the one who got her as a slave ( assuming marriage was not on the table due to the freedom tex. )
• How do you think he would make it very clear that she not to be treated like your average slave.
• What do you think there home life would like with them being BFs but not in a romantic relationship.
• He definitely would have her call him by his name instead of master.
• He also definitely would have her keep her name.
• How would he perform the mental gymnastics to see her as a fellow human being, but also have no problem with the terment of other slaves.
• Would it change his world view.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:16 am 
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Interesting train of thought!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:36 am 
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And I hate to bring this up but this does occur in the Gor novels.
(Please don't hate me?)

The hero and the slavegirl can be friends, sometimes even close BF's who share their hopes and dreams.
However this does not stop the man treating the girl as a slave. With frequent intimacy and discipline, and often turgid philosophy. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:13 am 
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Ok I just had a few more interesting thoughts in the shower.

• This would probably be considered kinky Erenisch Universe.
• This type of relationship might be viewed by the average member of the public in the Erenisch Universe might look at this type of relationship the same way normal people look at M/s in our world.
• That being a fringe political group that believe while most females are inferior and therefore there's nothing wrong with enslaving them, that a same minority of around 5% women desire to be permanently free although treated like women from the 1800s. With a more radical fringe see the minority as full equals with men.
• The male guy with the friend slaves could slowly be brought over to the fringe group suggested above as a way to alleviate himself from mental gymnastics of seeing his friend as a fellow human being, but also have no problem with the terment of other slaves.
• You can probably do something with the mental humiliation to the other slave girls, with them constantly being reminded they were not good enough to offer anything other bodies, unlike his his female friend.
• Hell the girl in the relationship due to being a social outcast might find herself really enjoy watching her BF r@pe and be a sadist to other women. Proving her superiority to all the other women who looked down upon them growing up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:22 am 
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EDGEWORTHY wrote:
And I hate to bring this up but this does occur in the Gor novels.
(Please don't hate me?)

The hero and the slavegirl can be friends, sometimes even close BF's who share their hopes and dreams.
However this does not stop the man treating the girl as a slave. With frequent intimacy and discipline, and often turgid philosophy. :roll:


In all honesty that was one of my HUGE pet peeve with the Gor books. Also for this hypothetical the guy does not want his closest friend to be his slave, he wants her as his friend and will treat her as such. Infact he probably going to put a hell of a lot effort into making her as distinct from common slaves humanly possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:28 pm 
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Blue Hat Man wrote:
EDGEWORTHY wrote:
And I hate to bring this up but this does occur in the Gor novels.
(Please don't hate me?)

The hero and the slavegirl can be friends, sometimes even close BF's who share their hopes and dreams.
However this does not stop the man treating the girl as a slave. With frequent intimacy and discipline, and often turgid philosophy. :roll:


In all honesty that was one of my HUGE pet peeve with the Gor books. Also for this hypothetical the guy does not want his closest friend to be his slave, he wants her as his friend and will treat her as such. Infact he probably going to put a hell of a lot effort into making her as distinct from common slaves humanly possible.


Hey Blue Hat Man if that is your pet peeve about the Gor books you have got off lightly :lol:

As for Edgeworthy you make an excellent point. I have read all the Gor books and have yet to be the recipient of any forum hate about it. So you are pretty safe on that score.

The concept should not be all that surprising. The man is literally the girl's entire universe that goes far beyond BFF-dom They will spend a lot of time together and will end up getting on whether they like it or not The thing can be called Stockholm Syndorme if you like or just learning to get on but even in the ECU you cannot spend every minute of every day screwing. You will have to find other ways of passing the time (apart from the girl being chained up)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:46 pm 
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Quote:
Hey Blue Hat Man if that is your pet peeve about the Gor books you have got off lightly :lol:

As for Edgeworthy you make an excellent point. I have read all the Gor books and have yet to be the recipient of any forum hate about it. So you are pretty safe on that score.


Oh, I have much bigger problems with the Gor books but they far to big pet peeve. The biggest problem I had was when 13-14 and I notice the second book started to fetishes and idolise the way of life of the people of Gor, instead of just portraying as a backwards barbaric plant are main character had to deal with a bunch of dick aliens dropping him off on.

The reason I enjoy the erenisch comics so much were I HATE the Gor series is that the erenisch comics don't try to portray the subject matter as being in the moral upstanding with some actual FASCIST reasoning. No really just switch out God for nature / the natural order and it astonishing how much they match up. I'm actually begin working on essay on the subject matter....

.....Sorry for going on a tangent there.

Quote:
The concept should not be all that surprising. The man is literally the girl's entire universe that goes far beyond BFF-dom They will spend a lot of time together and will end up getting on whether they like it or not The thing can be called Stockholm Syndorme if you like or just learning to get on but even in the ECU you cannot spend every minute of every day screwing. You will have to find other ways of passing the time (apart from the girl being chained up)


Sorry I'm I bit confused. Are you talking about about the ECU in general or my hypothetical scenario with the ECU ?

Assuming the answer is the former then, I have to point out that it seems like slaves are not really used for companionship, although please correct me if I'm wrong, it been awhile since I last read most of the comics. To add, your comment about Stockholm Syndorme would apply a lot to all the free women with arranged marriages.

If on the other hand if you meant the later, then I'm don't understand your comment about Stockholm Syndorme seeing how the the guy and gal were BFF way before they ended up
"master and slave". Although you must remember Mr. BFF-dom again has no intention of treating her like a slave.

Quote:
. . . . but even in the ECU you cannot spend every minute of every day screwing.


Well your words have lead me to thinking of what are some possible reasons why their relationship stayed platonic. Has far as I figure one or a combination of the following are possible.

• It could be one of those BF situations where the guy describes the girl has like a sister to him and vice versa. Which if in that case, while they would definitely not have the desire to fuck each other, but would have no problem r@ping slaves together.

• The girl in question could be a lesbian.

• The guy in question could be a sadist that while enjoying other girls suffering, hates the thought of is dearest of friends having a single tear.

• . They see personal bond has being far more close and intimate then all those so called couple who relationship revolve around sex, which by not having with each other there proving the pureness of their love.

Lastly I have on more question which popped into my mind when I reread what you wrote here

Quote:
The man is literally the girl's entire universe that goes far beyond BFF-dom They will spend a lot of time together . . .


Are slaves in question like are BFF-dom supper close friend be allowed to use the internet. If the answer yes, then what types of chat rooms and other online venues would be available to for are barely a slave friend ? This questions imported because it changes whether or not BF slave only world is solely has her BFF-dom as a meaningful relationship or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:17 pm 
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Okay. I will attempt to answer each point in turn and a lot of this seems a pure case of crossed lines

The general point I was making was, alas, inaccurate. This is because I was not actually discussing purely platonic merely "more than just a fuck" and it appears both in the ECU and in Gor. In terms of "purely platonic and nothing else" then I would accept that it would not appear in the ECU. Actually I am struggling to think of many Gor examples either as when the hero doesn't have a slave for sex they are put to other forms of exploitation that may be poor recall on my behalf though. I happily apologise for ignoring a major tenet of the OP as I was in a bit of a hurry. That was my bad. :oops:

My argument was that many Masters would find themselves becoming friendly with slaves but that in no way prevents them using them. If I may be so arrogant, I will cite my own Bouncie stories as an example. Her Master Agent Vernon has said on a couple of occasions that whilst he could happily do her all ends up twenty times a day, if you are stuck in a small space together for hours on end day in,day out then you have to find something else on top of that (even with the supplements and stuff they put in the food.)

I was attempting to suggest that most Masters and I include Peter and Paul in this see their main slaves as something more. Peter's developing relationship with Maggie and the last half of BG 10 Lovelust with Paul and Carol's almost date. My central point related to the ECU as that is what this forum is all about. So the remarks should be read in relation to that.

Regarding the Gor books. You are quite correct that there is a lot worse than this pet peeve about them. John Norman always saw them as a parable for his ideas about philosophy and human relations. He does not seem to overly enjoy fiction and does not consider them either fantasy or epic literature. He pretty much shuns the fan fiction writers and even the RL Goreans who scream "Honour" at the top of their voices every five minutes. Instead he calls to a readership, who he fails to grasp that they get his ideas and don't need them restated twelve times every book. Are there fascistic elements? He certainly frequently espouses what he says as a dogma so maybe your argument holds up. Having said that his issues with the feminists he blames for all his woes suggest more of a Orthodox vs Heresy mindset on his behalf. It may be a fun essay to read though.

The BFF point may have been taken out of context by you but here again, I feel my failure to fully note the "purely platonic" aspect is significant . It was meant merely as a comparison many girls have BFF and they idolise these relationships yet in the ECU those relationships still exist but are taken to highly sexual extremes due to the gender legal imbalamce and what you rightly describe as overtly fascist male rule and attitudes to "creatures" that are no longer deemed fully human under the law. The relationship with her Master transcends any friendship if only because of what he could potentially do to her.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:05 pm 
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[I just want you to to know before you go on reading, that I could not think of a way to to properly structure all the thought you provoked with your comment. So I broke it up into chunks and replied to each on individual. So I apologise for the slightly schizophrenic flow tmy reply]

Quote:
Okay. I will attempt to answer each point in turn and a lot of this seems a pure case of crossed lines

The general point I was making was, alas, inaccurate. This is because I was not actually discussing purely platonic merely "more than just a fuck" and it appears both in the ECU and in Gor. In terms of "purely platonic and nothing else" then I would accept that it would not appear in the ECU...


Like you side there nothing remotely close to a purely platonic relationship in the ECU. So that why I find playing with concept so much fun. I enjoy the challenge of taking something that total different and elaborating on the hypothetical.

Quote:
Actually I am struggling to think of many Gor examples either as when the hero doesn't have a slave for sex they are put to other forms of exploitation . . .


I find it funny you say that because earlier today while debating a on Marxism vs The Gorean Philosophy, during I actually adapted to explain basics of Marx's Theory of Dialectical Materialism, through Gor.... Infact I used the very example you being how when Masters are not fucking slave they are put to other forms of exploitation :oops: I have no idea why I thought that would work. At least I made them learn what class consciousness is. Anyway sorry for that tangent.

Quote:
. . . that may be poor recall on my behalf though. I happily apologise for ignoring a major tenet of the OP as I was in a bit of a hurry. That was my bad. :oops:


It okay fine, we all get trigger happy some time. :D I'm quite guilty of this sin as well my friend, so really don't sweat it. :D
Quote:
My argument was that many Masters would find themselves becoming friendly with slaves but that in no way prevents them using them. If I may be so arrogant, I will cite my own Bouncie stories as an example. Her Master Agent Vernon has said on a couple of occasions that whilst he could happily do her all ends up twenty times a day, if you are stuck in a small space together for hours on end day in,day out then you have to find something else on top of that (even with the supplements and stuff they put in the food.)


While you do bring up a very interesting point and your stories does severe as a wonderful way to demonstrate your point. I would simply like to politely and respectfully clarify that the BFF-dom as @Rufus named him, moves heaven and earth to make sure he the one who got his BF has a slave, somewhat ironically in order to prevent her living life as a slave. Also unlike in your very lovely story, the two in question formed there strong emotional bond with each other a long ass time before the enslavement issue comes up. I do apologize if I failed to make that rather crucial detail clear. Hopefully any miscommunications between us is smoothed out now.

Quote:
I was attempting to suggest that most Masters and I include Peter and Paul in this see their main slaves as something more. Peter's developing relationship with Maggie and the last half of BG 10 Lovelust with Paul and Carol's almost date. My central point related to the ECU as that is what this forum is all about. So the remarks should be read in relation to that.


While I most certainly see your point Peter and Paul. The behavior observed from the background characters throughout the comics make my question what the cultural norm in the ECU is. Also as a aside, may I ask permission to steal the example you gave from your Bouncie stories, in order to demonstrate my point as to my main fundacional argument as to why Gorean society would collapse very quickly relatively speaking if it was real. I've been having a really hard time finding examples of empathy destroying illusion of social classes apart that that people who call themself Gorean would except. For some reason they won't accept theory predicated upon repeatable patterns in human society post industrial revolution, but except fictional passages from fictional stories. Anyway I apologies, for my second tangent in just this response.

Quote:
Regarding the Gor books. You are quite correct that there is a lot worse than this pet peeve about them. John Norman always saw them as a parable for his ideas about philosophy and human relations. He does not seem to overly enjoy fiction and does not consider them either fantasy or epic literature. He pretty much shuns the fan fiction writers and even the RL Goreans who scream "Honour" at the top of their voices every five minutes.


Why do I get the inperstion you like me are to interests in crazy people ? ;)

Quote:
Instead he calls to a readership, who he fails to grasp that they get his ideas and don't need them restated twelve times every book. Are there fascistic elements? He certainly frequently espouses what he says as a dogma so maybe your argument holds up.


This might surprise you but I think for John Norman much of it is fantasy elements. The first book feel more akin Conan the Barbarian in it's tone describing the Plant of Gor. Much of the same things we see over, and over again further down the series are shown in Gor. Book 1. Although unlike the future novels the culture of Gor is not justified as any thing else then a barbarian feudal society, that a bunch of shit head aliens deserted themain charecters ass on. Either way if he wanted people to take it literally or not it does not matter. The essy for the people who do take it literally.

Quote:
Having said that his issues with the feminists he blames for all his woes suggest more of a Orthodox vs Heresy mindset on his behalf. It may be a fun essay to read though.

Really happy I'm not the only person crazy enough to care. If you want I can share some of idea for it over PMs. :D

Quote:
The BFF point may have been taken out of context by you but here again, I feel my failure to fully note the "purely platonic" aspect is significant . It was meant merely as a comparison many girls have BFF and they idolise these relationships yet in the ECU those relationships still exist but are taken to highly sexual extremes due to the gender legal imbalance and what you rightly describe as overtly fascist male rule and attitudes to "creatures" that are no longer deemed fully human under the law. The relationship with her Master transcends any friendship if only because of what he could potentially do to her.

I bolded your last point because it bring up a new fascinating further lines of thought I would I'e never occurred to me. That in just having a purely platonic relationship with one another is in itself I highly profound. What there doing is a act of rebellion against the enter society conceptualization of the world.The monolithic significance of this within the fictional setting is mind boggling considering that our culture does not exist within the EC Universe. At the moment the closest equivalent in the real world to this might be declaration "Gott ist tot" god is dead by Friedrich Nietzsche.

I'm going to think about whether or not this would rip there whole world ap[art by removing certainty in the fundamental foundation of all their beliefs of what right and wrong.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:36 am 
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This is very interesting. What is the gorean philosophy anyway? if it is not too complicated to explain in a forum post


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:56 pm 
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Bipedrobot wrote:
This is very interesting. What is the gorean philosophy anyway? if it is not too complicated to explain in a forum post


There are (surprisingly divergent)versions of it. The one in the actual Norman Gor books holds that women and men are both wondrous creatures and can work beautifully together by accepting their differences and living by the natural rules of male/female relationships. This is where the internet flaming comes in. Norman argues that females are "almost universally in nature" smaller, weaker and "submissive" to the male of the species. He further argues that women are happiest in a submissive relationships as this best fulfills their nurturing role in nature and that it is all built into generations of human biology. His justification is that "historically" women have always sought out the strongest men to ensure their safety, protection and survival of their children and the price they are willing to pay for this greater good is "slavery". That point is scientifically arguable at best and politically horrifying (read totally abhorrent) to most feminists. These women are blamed by Norman for getting his books essentially blacklisted for the best part of 20 years. He takes vindictive revenge on "feminist" characters in a couple of later books.

The other version of it is from the Real Life "Goreans" who role play it, use it on Second Life or choose to live their lives by their take on the philosophy. This version is all about living your life with "honour" (If you are male of course) and so you treat women and othr men the right way. Those who don't can get ostracised to a quite horrifying degree in the community. Unsurprisingly the idea of female slavery plays a major part of it. Honour appears in the books and his hero talks a lot about it, certainly more than he pracitices it. It is like people who claim to live their lives as a Jedi or a Samurai based very much on what the individual chooses to pick out as being the true way as opposed to what the reality would be.


Last edited by Rufus on Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:01 pm 
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There is one point that I noted in Blue Hat Man's last post that I wish to correct and not turn this thread into a bi-partite argument.

The phrase "BFFdom" does not refer to a BFF dominant individual as you appear to believe it refers to the concept of BFFs so perhaps I should say BFF-ness to avoid the confusion. The idea of a BFF Dom is one that somebody may explore in a story but it is not one that I would argue.

Feel free to steal any supporting example from Bouncie that you see fit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:05 am 
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Quote:
There are (surprisingly divergent)versions of it. The one in the actual Norman Gor books holds that women and men are both wondrous creatures and can work beautifully together by accepting their differences and living by the natural rules of male/female relationships. This is where the internet flaming comes in. Norman argues that females are "almost universally in nature" smaller, weaker and "submissive" to the male of the species. He further argues that women are happiest in a submissive relationships as this best fulfills their nurturing role in nature and that it is all built into generations of human biology. His justification is that "historically" women have always sought out the strongest men to ensure their safety, protection and survival of their children and the price they are willing to pay for this greater good is "slavery". That point is scientifically arguable at best and politically horrifying (read totally abhorrent) to most feminists. These women are blamed by Norman for getting his books essentially blacklisted for the best part of 20 years. He takes vindictive revenge on "feminist" characters in a couple of later books.

The other version of it is from the Real Life "Goreans" who role play it, use it on Second Life or choose to live their lives by their take on the philosophy. This version is all about living your life with "honour" (If you are male of course) and so you treat women and othr men the right way. Those who don't can get ostracised to a quite horrifying degree in the community. Unsurprisingly the idea of female slavery plays a major part of it. Honour appears in the books and his hero talks a lot about it, certainly more than he pracitices it. It is like people who claim to live their lives as a Jedi or a Samurai based very much on what the individual chooses to pick out as being the true way as opposed to what the reality would be.


Wow.... in just two paragraphs you communicated what takes Norman apparently 33 books and counting.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:35 pm 
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Rufus wrote:
There is one point that I noted in Blue Hat Man's last post that I wish to correct and not turn this thread into a bi-partite argument.

The phrase "BFFdom" does not refer to a BFF dominant individual as you appear to believe it refers to the concept of BFFs so perhaps I should say BFF-ness to avoid the confusion. The idea of a BFF Dom is one that somebody may explore in a story but it is not one that I would argue.

Feel free to steal any supporting example from Bouncie that you see fit.


Hhhhh..... I did not know BFF-Dom was a real term.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:27 pm 
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Quote:
My argument was that many Masters would find themselves becoming friendly with slaves but that in no way prevents them using them.


What about when the master and slave were friends before becoming master and slave. Speaking as someone who's real life BFF is girl who I meet in high school. I would never dream of using and or exploiting her. Although being in real life a Classical Marxist, I might be not the best comparison to some one who grow up in the culture of the ECU and definitely did not read The Communist Manifesto when they were 15.

:idea: Typing this I just realized what a weird kid I was growing up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:21 pm 
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In the ECU knowing a girl for most of her life, merely puts you at the head of the queue enslavement wise so it is not a major issue by their standards/. Remember that in this reality "female slavery is the opiate of the masses."


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:34 am 
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OK with me here for a moment but I swear this type back to the topic .Yesterday while I was spending some time over at the Transhumanism Subredit I read a comment that hypothesize that A generation or two after either sex robots or virtual reality sex become why do you available to the general public that our society notion of romance would and W balding do to people deciding to become SO with their best friend of The gender that makes sense for their orientation to be SO / get married with. The reasoning given was that when the sexual component of the relationship is taking out of the picture getting together with your best friend seems to be the logical choice.

The moment after I finished reading that comment by brain immediately thought of this discussion. The reason for that was that the change in the social dynamics presented by the technology disgust and that brought about by the Female Enslavment Act where the same.

Although has a aromatic I personally have literally no frame of reference which to tell if the conclusion reached by that rediter is it all possible. I'm not joking, i'm never experienced having crushes or any of the other things that are associated with romance. I honestly cannot wrap my head around what the difference between A significant other and a BFF who have a friends with benefits relationship is ? So could your thoughts on this interesting a publicist as someone who presumably actually in order to judge it ?

Finally interesting hey Paul this is that I stumbled across on the Transhumanism Subredit is actually plausible then would you agree that hypothetical relationship I resent it in my opening post being extremely ultra rare with the ECU as we previously included. That instead such relationships would be coming in where it would form it own subculture. Probably being looked at by the mighty of people within the ECU, the same way M/s relationships are looked at by the majority of people within our socity ?

I'm not sure if this idea of what will hold up but I just love the ideal of what we consider a to be the most vanilla of the vanilla things being seen as kinky in the ECU hilarious. :D


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