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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:25 pm 
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celestical wrote:
It's also easy to imagine highlighting cis het male successes in school while omitting or explaining away other achievements or events. (Lovelace disappears while Babbage remains, minimal nod to Turing as examples)
Or even slanting history to imply a bias (first wave feminist art movement being sexualized as the thing it was fighting against)


With History it is easier to add something to it than remove it. Historians follow a cycle of revising history when exposed to 'new' evidence and so being able to discredit the old regime with carefully crafted lies is entirely possible. Just make sure that a few odd 'freaks' are included and most people will not realise as it is not perfect.

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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:45 pm 
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When teaching history, it's easier to indoctrinate by simplifying the stories to something similar to pulp action, or boiling down to "great men" without mentioning the conflicts at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:58 pm 
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About the people with the memory of the old world thing, it is very easy for people to "forget" old times when they are better of economically. If some teenager asks about their past, they would say "these were different times". And remember that state controls the media, the news, the academia, and who cares about some crackpot historian who talks about days of gender equality . he will lose his tenure soon anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:16 pm 
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That is assuming they're better off economically.

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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:09 pm 
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MrGoodPecker wrote:
About the people with the memory of the old world thing, it is very easy for people to "forget" old times when they are better of economically. If some teenager asks about their past, they would say "these were different times". And remember that state controls the media, the news, the academia, and who cares about some crackpot historian who talks about days of gender equality . he will lose his tenure soon anyway.



There is a very old and perceptive satire on the way History used to be taught in British Schools called "1066 and all that" in the preface the authors make the following comment

Quote:
History is not what you thought, it is what you remember. All other history is self defeating.


Humans have a wonderful ability to forget things that don't fit the idea of history they want or need to believe in. In Britain we have the "Blitz spirit" of 1940-41 where everyone came together and saw off the bombing with a show of unity and public high-mindedness. Actually , all types of crime were at record levels and people stole from the dead and the bombed out buildings, but that never gets mentioned. Given that selective amnesia, the idea that the Erenischean people had idealised the past and the efforts of a few "Founding Fathers" (apologies to my American colleagues if that offends, but there is a reason for my choice of wording) are made to stand out from the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:18 pm 
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History is always the enemy of tyrants and dictators, which is why they re-write and/or suppress it. Even democratic societies often find history an uncomfortable thing to examine too closely.

I'm not a bit offended by our "founding fathers" ending up on the list of historical fabricators. The country they founded may have been constructed on democratic ideals, but the historical reality of the republic they built has been one of genocide of native Americans, slavery of African Americans and brutal, robber-baron capitalism backed up by a self-serving foreign policy that's been instrumental in the oppression and impoverishment of citizens of other nations around the world.

The sanitized view of our past that's taught in schools is positively Orwellian in its omissions and misrepresentations. As our educational system has been deliberately dumbed-down over the past 40 years we've seen economic inequality and the concentration of political power in the hands of a few mega-corporations to an unprecedented degree that darkens the prospects of future citizens in ways they don't even understand.

At my age, the results of our real history, as opposed to the fairy tales we're told in school, are all too obvious. It would be over-optimistic in this case to say that those who forget the lessons of history are bound to repeat them. I fear we're making disastrous choices here that will create a new and even uglier history than what's come before.


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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:31 pm 
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As a Brit, whose nation has been one of the most prominent users of concentration camps (3 times at least) , Imperialism on a vast scale, paternalistic racism and a string of ill thought out military operations (at least 2 against Islamic extremists in Afghanistan alone and counting) , I hesitate to criticise America on that score1 I do, however, find your point about not leaning the lessons of history to be interesting. I think the main one must be the example where the "idealistic" U.S administration decided that it would look beyond mere dogmatic differences to aid local guerilla freedom fighters in their struggle against an imperialistic world power. To that end they poured money and weapons into a war-zone, confident that the training and weapons would never be turned against them after the event.

Unfortunately nobody seems to have pointed out the results of arming the Vietnamese Communists against the French, to the people who armed the Afghans against the Soviets If it makes you feel better, elements of the British Government thought that likeable if somewhat physical chap "Idi Amin would be a decent leader for his people.


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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:33 am 
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Rufus wrote:
As a Brit, whose nation has been one of the most prominent users of concentration camps (3 times at least) , Imperialism on a vast scale, paternalistic racism and a string of ill thought out military operations (at least 2 against Islamic extremists in Afghanistan alone and counting) , I hesitate to criticise America on that score1 I do, however, find your point about not leaning the lessons of history to be interesting. I think the main one must be the example where the "idealistic" U.S administration decided that it would look beyond mere dogmatic differences to aid local guerilla freedom fighters in their struggle against an imperialistic world power. To that end they poured money and weapons into a war-zone, confident that the training and weapons would never be turned against them after the event.

Unfortunately nobody seems to have pointed out the results of arming the Vietnamese Communists against the French, to the people who armed the Afghans against the Soviets If it makes you feel better, elements of the British Government thought that likeable if somewhat physical chap "Idi Amin would be a decent leader for his people.


I rather doubt any of the support for this rebel group or that were truly based on ideological reasons. Leaders find a good story to tell, to sell the action to public, but its just a story. So they can say they are "supporting democracy" by arming one group or something, but the real reason they did it was probably something else entirely, most likely just an attempt to fuck over or inconvenience the country fighting the rebels, who is considered a potential threat to their interests.


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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:32 am 
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Two comments to add:

The classic 'History is written by the victors'

I was once related a story about rose tinted glasses. A husband and wife were walking by an old house where they used to live. He said Oh it was absolutely great to live there.

She said What you don't remember the rain pouring in, the cold etc.

His reply was: You don't remember the gathering we used to have or the times we snuggled on the sofa?

Wife responds with: we snuggled because we were cold & wet!

People remember different things. People also see different things. That is why eyewitness testimony does not directly correspond with each other and can be unreliable.

Because our eyes only ever view the past and not the present (light speed limitations) our brains are always attempting to fill in the blanks. What we fill them with is one of the things that makes us all unique individuals.

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 Post subject: Re: Erenischian History
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:31 pm 
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otherguy wrote:
I rather doubt any of the support for this rebel group or that were truly based on ideological reasons. Leaders find a good story to tell, to sell the action to public, but its just a story. So they can say they are "supporting democracy" by arming one group or something, but the real reason they did it was probably something else entirely, most likely just an attempt to fuck over or inconvenience the country fighting the rebels, who is considered a potential threat to their interests.



You're right."Charlie Wilson's War" was all about screwing the Soviets and making sure they posed no threat to U.S interests around Pakistan.

It was a dislike for old school Imperialism that persuaded the Americans to aid the Communist Vietnamese. they were probably more astonished by the results than the French were. In the 1950s the Americans genuinely believed that the old European Empires of Britain and France were almost as dangerous to the new world as the Soviets were. Hence the American reaction to the Suez Crisis of 1956. They believed that they were anti Imperialism in the same sense that the Federation is in Star Trek. However, to drag this thread back on topic the dogma is more important than the facts in a lot of "diplomacy".


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